Thank you so much for this. I think we can all appreciate demonstrable accountability and owning up when a mistake is made. I certainly can!

I personally think this whole thing is fucking stupid and DN doesn't owe nothing to anyone. The shirts are Unisex.

Wow, it's a shirt size... this whole thing seems even more ridiculous after reading it again, hours later.

Daniel Eden was looking to publicly shame you. It's not about the shirt. Otherwise he would have done the professional thing and tried to resolve the matter privately.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/the-rise-of-victimhood-culture/404794/

This is a huge gesture. Thanks for stepping up, Andrew and everyone else at DN—it’s my hope that conversations surrounding these issues and more continue to happen in this community, and it’s reassuring that the people at the headwaters recognize the importance of this.

This is brilliant marketing. I didn't even know there was a DN shirt, and now I do.

Stay PC, bros. Or else.

I think apologizing is the right thing to do.

I also think the shame-game went way too far. Just a one-off "a shame you don't have women sizes" would've done just fine.

They were working on the female shirts. Nobody knows why they weren't here yet. Can we ask about that before we go all "OMG YOU FUCKERS HATE WOMEN" on someone? Please? Or maybe I missed the part where we asked before we grabbed our pitchforks.

Regardless, I think this world could do with some empathy.

.edit: To me, this whole thing feels a bit like bringing fruit to the office for all your co-workers, and some of them gets pissed off that you didn't consider their fruit-allergy.

Are all of you people serious with this outlandish backlash? As the owner of an apparel company I'd like to point out something: TO MY UNDERSTANDING, the shirts are printed on the American Apparel 2001 Crewneck T-Shirt. This particular shirt is known to boast a tapered European fit, meaning the sleeves are shorter than, say, a basic Hanes tee you might find at the craft store. They are also tighter around the bicep. The torso of the tee tapers down from the armpits to the waist to contour, somewhat, to the body. This creates what is known as a "unisex" cut. It is truly unisex because it's not super-boxy like basic men's tees, but it doesn't have the extra-short sleeves of women's tees.

I myself have printed on this exact shirt in years prior in an attempt to afford a broad range of sizes for both genders. If I hadn't done that, I'd have to order less varied sizes, and I'm a fat dude that can barely fit in an XL, so that wasn't something that would work for me of the brand. Would you rather discriminate against fat people instead of female people because that scenario doesn't directly pertain to you? I hope not.

Female friends of mine have not only worn these shirts confidently, but actually MODELED in them and garnered more attention to the brand than anything else. So save your complaints for a worthy cause, because DN is a beautiful place that hasn't wronged any of us, ESPECIALLY in this situation over a stupid unisex vs. men's t-shirt debacle. They not even a shirt company. And you're not an activist if you're berating others in the comment section of a forum; you're more like a raincloud. Go away.

Using the word "Fucked" is a trigger and I personally will not stand for that

This matters. Thank you.

Thank you

If DN chose to only sell Men's shirts and ignore the women, then yea, you fucked up. If it was a mistake or ("worse") a business decision to maybe start slow then nah, I think y'all are good.

The people who fucked up are the ones that asked for your "heads" (proverbial heads) on a silver platter for T-SHIRT SIZES when there are more serious things to be concerned, worried, raged about.

But, thanks for owning up to it. Now the ragers will have to find something else to rage about.

It's cool guys, some people see it as blowing out of proportion but I think the voice has made an effort to shine a little light on some of the wider issues at hand. Not everyone will agree but I think it's this baby steps that help move us in the right direction. Really appreciate the team taking such a bold step forward.

It's a bit unfortunate to address the audience with «you guys» in this context.

I was one of the first people to bring this issue up, before DN even really announced the t-shirts.

I'm a woman, and the reason this is important and worth talking about is because of the tone and attitude DN seems to take when choosing to offer only Mens shirts. Even if the shirts were indeed "unisex", they were consciously labeled as shirts for Men, not just shirts. As other women on this thread have mentioned, one of the repercussions of the t-shirt fiasco was that it creates a space that is not safe or welcoming for women.

Granted, I doubt DN had those intentions - or any bad intentions for that matter. But this is a community, a community where we should be able to challenge the status quo and expect more from ourselves and leadership.

Should we just accept the microaggressions, saying nothing about inequality?

Should we not expect more from DN, from ourselves?

Maybe talking about this kind of stuff will show decision makers and leaders that sexism in tech is real. Worth being concerned about. Worth trying to fix.

You are human. Shit happens

Thank you.

Good answer. Thanks.

It's cool that you guys had a response for this and it seems very appropriate. I would think the community could've handled this situation little better though. I know we all want to make the right steps forward to create the best environment for both sexes but the reaction to the original Men's Shirt issue is very much so over the top.

It does however bring to attention a small detail that some might not have been aware of when handling similar issues like this out in the wild. Very small things like this can be taken and turned into very big problems. Be as inclusive as you can be and always be thinking about that when creating content.

There are DN T-shirts?

I have only one question. Why woman may now pay money and receive a t-shirt, and I can't? If you are interested in so as not to infringe on the rights of the people, so why do you choose whose rights to not infringe? Why can't I buy a t-shirt outside the United States? Why you drew attention to the problem of female audience and did not pay attention to the problems of people who live outside the United States?

That's very thoughtful of you guys but that's not a "fuck up". I was expecting a scandal or something. You've just mis looked a point. Don't forget you're all humans. You can't think everything every time. Also do not care about the internet most of the time. Even designer news is have antisocial people who constantly feeding their troll under their bridge just for their pleasure. I know it's hard but try to filter some noises in the feedbacks. If you're going to punish yourself, just don't do designer news. Because self worthiness and consciousness is much more important then anything. Yeah anything because those two is the only fuel to survive in this world. If you feel one of two or both compromised, and love what you do, like I've said try to build a logical filter in your brain.

Ok a huge majority are designers in here but also don't forget that all are on internet, hiding behind their nicks and monitors. I'm not against about anything, I never saw a swear word in DN admins and I guess you guys was in mental pain since you think you "fucked" up.

You didn't fuck up anything. If you hurt someone intentionally and post it on DN on "mistake", that's a fuck up.

Not only did you "fuck up" once, but you also "fucked up" a SECOND time.

You've been really apologetic that you seemingly forgot to order women sizes for you t-shirts and go on to say: "Designer News is and always will be a community of people of all genders in design and technology and this was a moment of stupidity on our part."

But only a few lines previous to that statement you said...

"This is a total oversight (and screwup) on our part, and we hope that you GUYs can apply Hanlon's Razor to this one:"

You're addressing GUYS, no mention of girl, girls, ladies, women or females!!!

So yet again mate... YOU FUCKED UP

Well done taking ownership of this and acknowledging that it matters.

To nitpick the language a bit (sorry), I think "oversight" and "stupidity" might not be the best excuses to offer. Maybe a more accurate word would be thoughtlessness? That doesn't imply malice, but does accurately reflect that there was deficiency in the thought process that led to this.

Oversight and stupidity are both difficult to fix, and thus, easy to excuse again in the future. But, you can build thoughtfulness into your processes. We all can.

For everyone complaining that this is trivial, why take the time to join this conversation then? Even if you feel that this doesn't matter to you, it's not harming you that people care about it.

And if you feel it is harming you that a community is attempting be a little bit better at including people (all people) then, maybe take a few minutes to unpack that thought.

Hmm.

:) you guys rock.

I think just making a female t-shirt would be enough. You forget about it, it happens to everyone.

Class act.

Thank you.

Would love to see sales figures for women's sizes in six months or so. Barring some white knight buying t-shirts just to prove a point, I can't see women's sizes selling, perhaps at all.

What if they treated these shirts as "MVP?" We do it all the time with our work. We see who the most valuable users are, and cater to those user stories, "discriminating" the rest. If I was owner of DN, and I had data to suggest the male persona were my most valuable persona, and I just wanted to see if the shirts would sale, I'd only put out shirts for Men. I'm not against woman and woman rights. I'm just discriminating based on my most valuable persona to gain valuable insight.

Not to mention, these shirts are Unisex, which Sean Healey described well above.

ITT: People getting their undergarments twisted in all sorts of different directions

TL;DR: Women shirts available; seen as a good move by most, some are indifferent, others are outraged at the perceived overly-PC nature of the move

Sorta OT: Love my unisex DN shirt! Hooray for being within the normal range of shapes and sizes males usually come in!

Edit: Personally, I'm glad we live in a society where arguing about such things is a thing we can spend time doing. It's a luxury not afforded to some people who are too busy trying not to die from various things around the world to care about a t-shirt.

Thanks for this, Andrew

Was the original post deleted? I posted in that thread but can't find my post anymore. Real shady.