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almost 10 years ago from Art Vandelay, Latex Salesman - Vandelay Industries
Sure women can learn the same online material as others, but as you said there are tons of men in this field. From what I understand (being a dude), it is very hard for women to be recognized, even though (some might even say especially because) they may be incredible developers/designers. The web is open, but the ability to make in on the web is not.
Yeah I've heard that... I just don't understand the logic behind it.
It's in no one's advantage to turn down good work. If a woman does good work, who would actually gain value from not recognizing her?
I mean, that argument makes sense logically but this topic doesn't really follow logic. Women are just as much human and are just as capable as working as men. So if a woman does good work, why do women, on average, make 0.70 cents for every dollar that a man makes. The work is the same and the only difference is the gender. It just isn't a system that follows logic.
Damn. That's crazy unfair.
This is true, and it's also 100% rational. But the world isn't 100% rational. I think many people in management positions (and otherwise) are used to seeing men in power, and seeing men as the movers and shakers of workplaces and societies. So when a manager, maybe of an older generation, who grew up in the 50s, who has mostly worked with male managers and male workers, sees a girl present her work, it's easy for this manager to SUBCONSCIOUSLY dismiss her a little bit more than they would dismiss a male presenting the same work. Decisions are made on gut feeling as well as many other factors and if the gut feeling towards a woman is somehow, unconsciously, to see her as less competent or less powerful then she's probably less likely to get the job.
Did you automatically assign a gender to that manager? I didn't use any gendered pronouns, but I'm guessing there's a good chance you assumed that manager was male. There you go - that's a good example of this subconscious 'gut feeling' that still exists in society in relation to workplaces/work/positions of power.
There's a ton of other issues at play too.
One other thing I'll mention is the culture of business today. Many businesses and workplaces have a culture where to get real attention often an employee should be quite loud, push their ideas in meetings, be (over)confident in their abilities, be willing to talk over someone... In guys, that's going to look confident, ambitious, strong, a leader - things society values in men and teaches young men to be. But for women, firstly we have to get over the hump of forgetting that we've been told from a young age to be kind of the opposite of that strong character. And secondly we need to work out how to be that person at work or in an interview and avoid getting the subconscious 'bitch' tag, where a guy would just be seen as ambitious.
I know to a point I'm stereotyping, and so many workplaces and managers aren't like this and so many men and women I've worked with don't think like this. But it's an undeniable fact that there ARE managers who think like that, and those guys are often the ones with the power to make the hiring decisions, leading to less women being represented.
DID YOU SEE A MAN? [puff of smoke]
+1 for different professional expectations for women and importance of exposing our own bias.
Society does not teach men how to be confident, ambitions, strong, and leaders. It expects it, but doesn't teach it – men are on the same ground as women in this regard.
Life rewards hard work, and those who are willing to work hard will rise to the top, regardless of gatekeepers or anything else. This is true for any industry, but is especially true for one like design, where no gatekeeper approval is required for recognition.
What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.gallup.com/poll/165791/americans-prefer-male-boss.aspx
My thoughts are, it shows that male dominance is a myth... women are just as responsible for the "male manager" stereotype as men are.
Thanks for your comment, interested in your thoughts!
Life rewards hard work, and those who are willing to work hard will rise to the top, regardless of gatekeepers or anything else.
You're describing a meritocracy, a pervasive, damaging and tightly-held myth in our industry that hides prejudice and discrimination.
This is true for any industry, but is especially true for one like design, where no gatekeeper approval is required for recognition.
This is not true for any industry. If you search for "myth of meritocracy", you'll see this harmful concept is being discussed in comedy and music right now.
A "cracy" is a system created by humans. I'm talking about the fact that if you put everything you have into something, you get a result.
Newton's law in action. Any self-made man or woman will echo this. It transcends human systems.
This sounds like The Secret.
I think the link you shared actually proves my point about the subconscious bias we have towards putting/expecting men to be the ones in power - sure, both women and men are equally responsible for perpetuating this way of thinking - but it doesn't matter who's responsible for it, it still exists and it's still the world we're working in. I'm definitely not putting blame on men in general or on anyone - I'm just pointing out that the bias exists and it's something we have to consciously recognise and push against.
I see what you're saying too about how society doesn't teach men to be confident and ambitious, only expects it. But I think people often live up to what's expected of them, and a lot of people will usually follow the path of least resistance in that regard - it's easier to be what people want you to be than to be different. It's just another one of these difficult-to-define speedbumps that lie in women's paths and that most of the time aren't even noticed. I guess it's just an issue of that - theres a couple less speedbumps on some people's roads that just make it that bit easier for them to succeed, and judging by the state of our industry at the moment, those with the least speedbumps at the moment seem to be pretty often male and white.
Building up a public reputation also requires a heck of a lot of free time, which women are less likely to have.
What's the point you're making here?
I'm supporting Conlin's point that recognition doesn't come as easily for women.
Women do not have less time as a birthright. Many women make conscious decisions which limit their time, which is one reason why women are paid $0.70/$1.00.
It's actually $0.49/$1.00 in Silicon Valley. I'm (obviously) not saying women are born with less time; please check out the the statistics.
Nope, it means women are less represented.
Also, you should meet more women... my graphic design course at university was probably 85% female/15% male.
But don't you think that industries like technology, business and science are fields that men as a whole are more interested in than women?
This premise is pervasive among, not only the tech industry but among culture at large (in the US at least).
Women are consistently excluded, both indirectly and directly, from science and tech.
If less women are represented, isn't that just because less women are interested?
This is often described as the "pipeline problem", and it's where a lot of folks start theorizing about why young women may or may not want to get into STEM. We can talk about it, but most of us aren't in a position to address that problem immediately. (If you'd like to be, volunteer and donate!)
How can we help in our immediate context? Let's focus on the women we DO have. Women are leaving the industry forever (!) at twice the rate of men, and lack of recognition is absolutely part of that.
Patrick is improving visibility and encouraging that behavior in others, which is totally valuable. He's also taking advantage of social momentum and building on an existing conversation. Killin' it, Patrick.
(By the way, please consider describing women as women, rather than girls!)
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I see what you're saying.
But don't you think that industries like technology, business and science are fields that men as a whole are more interested in than women?
After all... I've met a lot of girls in my life (admittedly, much less than I'd like to). And of all these girls, I think I've met one girl who was involved in a design company.
On the other hand, I've met tons of men who are interested in business... pretty much every man I talk to has a technical interest in making money with a business.
Given the fact that the internet is unprejudiced in how it provides information, meaning both men and women can equally learn the majority of skills needed for these industries, if less women are represented, isn't that just because less women are interested?